Grannypower has a great post with excellent ideas of how to cut costs:
Some hints on cutting your household budget.
I grew up poor and my mom could pinch a penny until it squealed for mercy. I had some suggestions to add to Grannypower's List. Writing a comment to Grannypower's blog, it morphed into a list too long to be a comment. By themselves they may not seem like much, but in the aggregate all these small savings can add up to big dollars back in your wallet:
1) Mow your own yard.
2) If wrinkles don't matter like in the case of sheets or towels hang the load to dry on a line. Clothespins and cord are inexpensive and the dryer is a huge energy hog especially when tasked to dry heavy things like towels and sheets. Use cold water to wash most clothes. It works just fine for normal loads.
3) Put your tank water heater on a timer as it it THE largest energy hog in the house acounting for almost 20-30 percent of your bill. Instead of having it heat water all day and night while you are asleep or at work, the timer can be set so the water is ready for morning and evening use.
4) If you have the cash up front to spend, invest in a tankless water heater. They are very common in Japan and Europe and save money by heating the water on demand.
5) Buy in bulk at those things you use often that will keep like pasta, rice, beans, oil, oatmeal, flour, and other staples. Costco beats most gorcery stores in unit pricing and they take good care of their employees.
6) If there are men in your household, buy a clipper and cut their hair at home. My hair costs twenty bucks plus tip at the barber. My mom always cut our hair at home - four boys plus dad - and saved real money every month. She even had professional quality scissors and cut my sisters' hair until they hit junior high and wanted modern styling.
7) Do the same with the pets. Instead of paying big bucks for grooming, wash and clip them at home.
8) Don't toss out worn, but well made shoes. Take them to the cobbler. My favorite boots have been resoled twice in ten years and are still going strong.
9) Opt to wear clothing that does not require drycleaning or use the store bought drycleaning kits to clean those items that are esstential three times out of four at home.
10) Close off rooms you don't use often and don't heat/cool them. Less area, lower bill.
11) Instead of stopping at random gas stations to fill up use online tools to determine which station close to you has the lower price and plan your route to fill up there. A quick google will yield a site that follows local gas prices.
12) Buy a Sigg bottle to hold your filtered tap water and refill through out the day at water coolers and fountains. Every bottle of water you don't buy is at least a buck in your pocket and less plastic in the landfill. Plus with all the research coming out about the chemicals that leach out of the plastic contaminating the water, you might also be saving yourself money on future medical problems.
13) My mom still does her own manicures and pedicures. She says she has saved over fifty thousand dollars in her lifetime with this alone. The math - fifty dollars every other week for 50 years. Note that I figure she was 15 when she started and didn't factor in interest on the savings and it is well over 50k.
14) Plug the TV, DVD player, computers, router, wi/fi, stereo etc into surge protectors you can reach easily and power them off at night or when you are gone during the day. These vampires account for five to ten percent of your electric bill as they draw current even when turned off. Having them plugged into a surge protector tends to consolidate them so there is only the surge to unplug and the sruge may save you having to buy costly replacements if there is a storm.
15) Have a monthly garage sale and clear out that garage, closet, attic. You can make real money and may discover treasures that warrant ebaying.
Comments
I was thinking of doing a list like this. #3 is brilliant and I'm going to look into doing that. So is #14 - I didn't know that about appliances.
Good additions, thanks. I was surprised at the number that I already do, and at the ones that are quite practicable but that I hadn't automatically considered.
Thanks. I can't claim credit for any of it. My mom and my dad have been doing all of this for years like Grannypower and raised up a huge family on a working man's wage. It was a partnership. Mom can bargain shop better than a pro and cooks so good that restaurants are often a disappointment. My grandpa used to describe dad as tighter than two coats of paint. Dad even changed the oil and filters on all the vehicles at home to save money. He'd do his own brake jobs as well. They bought a used rototiller and made half the yard into a garden when I was still in diapers. We all grew up learning how to can tomatoes and butcher chickens. Dad even hauled the trash to save the fees of collection.
Excellent list, Blue Eyes. I was raised in a poor family as well (did not know it then!), but we often did these things as just a way to live.
One thing I have done is plant collard greens which you can brush the snow off, pick and still eat. I remember one winter when I had a bread machine and collards--I made collard pizza all winter and we joked that the local pizzaria would probably not have our favorite topping.
Thanks. rated
Do you want me to delete the duplicate comment?
o'stephanie, it is funny how you don't realize you are poor until later. I was fed and had clothes and didn't know much different. Yes, there were kids in school who had much more, but there were also kids whose dads drank their checks away and had much less. We never had to eat government cheese, but don't get me wrong. There is no shame in government cheese as often it is single moms raising their kids by themselves that need those programs. You do what you have to and that makes you a good parent unlike them that don't do what is needed.
Being poor didn't seem to matter much until junior high or high school. By that time, I had been mowing yards for money for years and could buy the little extras I thought were important. Funny now to remember what I thought was important back them. I blew almost seventy bucks on a pair of sneakers. Yes, I did play basketball and yes they did get used, but there were less popular brands I could have had for much less.
Collard greens are wonderful. I have some mom recipes that make them even more so. They are really good for you as well. People need to eat more greens. Maybe we will come out of the financial correction leaner and healthier in more ways than one.
Being poor didn't seem to matter much until junior high or high school. By that time, I had been mowing yards for money for years and could buy the little extras I thought were important. Funny now to remember what I thought was important back them. I blew almost seventy bucks on a pair of sneakers. Yes, I did play basketball and yes they did get used, but there were less popular brands I could have had for much less.
Collard greens are wonderful. I have some mom recipes that make them even more so. They are really good for you as well. People need to eat more greens. Maybe we will come out of the financial correction leaner and healthier in more ways than one.
Yes, thank you, BBE! I got kicked out of the system...
delete this one as well to keep the post clean.
Good work!
delete this one as well to keep the post clean.
Good work!
Done.
Great list, BBE. What I like about it is that most of it really just requires paying more attention rather than making huge changes in one's life. The latter would help, too, of course, but I think people (including me) often don't realize that there are lots of little things that add up.
BBE, thanks for this and I agree. There are plenty of ways to save. I'm not renewing my daily local newspaper (hate to say, but I can get it for free on-line). The cable has too much fluff (movies, HBO)--that can go. I have the good fortunate of being able to walk to my office (it's on my property) and easy to ride my bike around town. I'm sure I can think of a lot more.
Excellent list and PLEASE put up the recipe for collard greens sometime! I love collard greens and have found a local produce company that grows them so I'm ready for new recipes.
Thanks, Blue eyes!
I look forward to your recipe for collards (esp if it involves bacon drippings!)
I look forward to your recipe for collards (esp if it involves bacon drippings!)
o'stephanie's comment inspires me to add that we also grew up without many extras (eight kids). As soon as I hit high school and took a home economics class, I discovered, as the book says, the joy of cooking. I then learned smart shopping on a budget, and it all dovetailed nicely so that now I do fine on a trimmed-down food budget by keeping a garden, baking dense, hearty, nutritious breads, and cooking and freezing the week's meals ahead of time. I can also change the oil or a tire, and replace a headlight in my car, if I have to. Growing up in not-wealthy circumstances teaches us valuable skills that are certainly coming in handy now.
BBE, Great post and thanks for adding to Granny's list.
the water heater part is very important. I like the name,"Vampires"
in the context of energy gobblers.
the water heater part is very important. I like the name,"Vampires"
in the context of energy gobblers.
BBE, have you been to a cobbler lately? Oye. I took a pair I love and it was going to cost 50 dollars. Buying a new pair was much cheaper.
I oppose the cobbler, unless you are fixing 500 dollar shoes.
I oppose the cobbler, unless you are fixing 500 dollar shoes.
This is a good list, Blue. The graphic you used reminds me of a website that has hundreds of hints like these: The Dollar Stretcher, at www.stretcher.com. It's associated with bankrate.com, so there are also lots of financial hints as well as consumer and household advice. Good stuff.
Stellaa, if the shoes are cheap, they aren't worth fixing. I learned to buy quality from my mother. She has wool and leather in her closet from thirty years ago she still wears. I still save up and buy the good stuff especially when the good stuff is on sale even now that I make good money. My boots were custom made and the cobbler in my town charged me thirty bucks the first go round and forty the second. Considering the boots were four hundred ten years ago in a part cash part barter deal I worked out, the resoles are well worth it.
To those wanting collards, I will get on it and yes, the best recipes do involve bacon.
MTK, you are uniquely positioned to save lots of cash if you want. You have land and no commute. That means you can tend to plants and compost and probably have animals for eggs and slaughter as well. If you can't bear to wield the knife yourself, there are butchers who will do the processing for you.
As I mostly ride motorcycles, the fuel crunch hasn't hit me that hard compared to people in SUVs. So I have not broken out the bicycle yet.
The solution to your entertainment problem is Netflix and the Roku box. Get a three DVD plan from Netflix and spend the c note to buy the Roku box. The Roku allows all instant view selections on netflix to be watched on your TV. A three DVD plan comes with unlimited instant view. While not everything is available for instant viewing, I think there are over 10,000 titles that are and more are added daily. If you are paying fifty bucks for cable per year, your cost is $600 per year. The alternative netflix plan is $240 in monthly fees, $100 one time purchase of the Roku, $20 bucks one time for the deluxe cables for the Roku and ten bucks shipping for a total of $370 the first year and $240 every years after. When you travel you can suspend your account which I don't think you can do with cable.
UK, my dad made sure all the girls could change a tire and their oil. He taught us older boys more because he more time then to work on cars. I taught my younger brothers how to do the basics as Dad got promoted after I had left home and had less time to do things for himself. But with fewer kids to clothe and feed and more money coming in it all worked out. Then my mom went to work and things got real comfortable for them.
Rob St Amant, when you live in a land of plenty it is easy to overlook the simple things. Just change a few habits and you'll bank hundreds a month.
Gary, my dad has always said unplug that vampire. Been saying it as long as I can remember. He was also very harsh about leaving lights or fans on when you left a room and monitored excess refrigerator opening as well.
To those wanting collards, I will get on it and yes, the best recipes do involve bacon.
MTK, you are uniquely positioned to save lots of cash if you want. You have land and no commute. That means you can tend to plants and compost and probably have animals for eggs and slaughter as well. If you can't bear to wield the knife yourself, there are butchers who will do the processing for you.
As I mostly ride motorcycles, the fuel crunch hasn't hit me that hard compared to people in SUVs. So I have not broken out the bicycle yet.
The solution to your entertainment problem is Netflix and the Roku box. Get a three DVD plan from Netflix and spend the c note to buy the Roku box. The Roku allows all instant view selections on netflix to be watched on your TV. A three DVD plan comes with unlimited instant view. While not everything is available for instant viewing, I think there are over 10,000 titles that are and more are added daily. If you are paying fifty bucks for cable per year, your cost is $600 per year. The alternative netflix plan is $240 in monthly fees, $100 one time purchase of the Roku, $20 bucks one time for the deluxe cables for the Roku and ten bucks shipping for a total of $370 the first year and $240 every years after. When you travel you can suspend your account which I don't think you can do with cable.
UK, my dad made sure all the girls could change a tire and their oil. He taught us older boys more because he more time then to work on cars. I taught my younger brothers how to do the basics as Dad got promoted after I had left home and had less time to do things for himself. But with fewer kids to clothe and feed and more money coming in it all worked out. Then my mom went to work and things got real comfortable for them.
Rob St Amant, when you live in a land of plenty it is easy to overlook the simple things. Just change a few habits and you'll bank hundreds a month.
Gary, my dad has always said unplug that vampire. Been saying it as long as I can remember. He was also very harsh about leaving lights or fans on when you left a room and monitored excess refrigerator opening as well.
Biblio, I am always looking for new ways to save money so I can afford another motorcycle and so will check that web site out. I ran a search for stretch a dollar image and that is the one that popped up on the second page.
I just spent six hundred dollars on derby skates and protective gear, so saving money in other places will help that hurt a little. I've never had collard greens...
This is a great video:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5949986&page=1
Now that man is what I call a real urban hero.
Umbrellakinesis, wow. I looked at that link of yours and it is really amazing and with NO WASTE. wow.
Biblio, I have rummaged through that web site and I signed up for their spam. Spam being their mass emailing.
Their post about water heaters even mentions turning the temp down which is another great tip.
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/03/03oct06k.cfm
And I know people who will pay good money for their natural ways to deal with ants:
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/05/05aug29a.cfm
I only skimmed some of the community boards, but they look worth more time as well.
Definitely a site to book mark and frequent.
Their post about water heaters even mentions turning the temp down which is another great tip.
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/03/03oct06k.cfm
And I know people who will pay good money for their natural ways to deal with ants:
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/05/05aug29a.cfm
I only skimmed some of the community boards, but they look worth more time as well.
Definitely a site to book mark and frequent.
I recommend getting a pressure cooker. They work faster and use energy more efficiently for so many things we cook. Plus, they are great for tenderizing less expensive cuts of beef, if you are still eating it.
Glad to have inspired you! And thanks for being my friend!
Grannypower, I am flattered you stopped by and have always had a thing for wise women.
Freeborn, I have an old pressure cooker that I must admit I rarely use now. Only when I'm cooking beans and other time intensive things, because you are absolutely correct on the speed with which they can cook things.
UK, that was a very good article over at ABC. I'm going to investigate further and see if there is an effort underway near me. I may invest.
ChangeAgent, as I and most of the men and probably many of the women as well are eagerly awaiting photos and derby blogging, that was money well spent. Now about those pictures...
Freeborn, I have an old pressure cooker that I must admit I rarely use now. Only when I'm cooking beans and other time intensive things, because you are absolutely correct on the speed with which they can cook things.
UK, that was a very good article over at ABC. I'm going to investigate further and see if there is an effort underway near me. I may invest.
ChangeAgent, as I and most of the men and probably many of the women as well are eagerly awaiting photos and derby blogging, that was money well spent. Now about those pictures...
BBE, congrats on making it to the front page.
Regarding your list, I don't have a lawn (#1), my neighbors would probably complain if I put up a clothesline (#2), already shop at Costco however being inside that store makes me physically ill so I can only visit every 3-4 months (#4), if my husband & I cut each other's hair we would look even worse than we already do (#6), we don't have and never will have pets (#7), and I chew my fingernails making a manicure unnecessary (#13).
Love the spirit of your post - I have already started taking excess books, for which I don't even have shelf space, to the used bookstore, where they give me credit to buy, guess what, even MORE books.
Regarding your list, I don't have a lawn (#1), my neighbors would probably complain if I put up a clothesline (#2), already shop at Costco however being inside that store makes me physically ill so I can only visit every 3-4 months (#4), if my husband & I cut each other's hair we would look even worse than we already do (#6), we don't have and never will have pets (#7), and I chew my fingernails making a manicure unnecessary (#13).
Love the spirit of your post - I have already started taking excess books, for which I don't even have shelf space, to the used bookstore, where they give me credit to buy, guess what, even MORE books.
LCV, Thanks for the congrats. Both food posts and this one have wandered to the front. Not sure why. OS is a funny place that way.
Regarding neighbors who hate clothes lines, I have a line in the laundry room and another in the shower. Don't use them much, but they are there if things get dire.
On the book expenditure front -- Library Card. Nothing better.
Regarding neighbors who hate clothes lines, I have a line in the laundry room and another in the shower. Don't use them much, but they are there if things get dire.
On the book expenditure front -- Library Card. Nothing better.
Book tip --
1) Go to a yard sale and buy up the books --you know the box of books they sell for $5.
2) Take the box to a used bookstore. Exchange them for store credit. It'll be more than $5.
3) Buy the books you really want to read.
1) Go to a yard sale and buy up the books --you know the box of books they sell for $5.
2) Take the box to a used bookstore. Exchange them for store credit. It'll be more than $5.
3) Buy the books you really want to read.
Great post - We can learn a lot from those who've survived tough times in the past. I'm googling "tankless water heater" now. I refuse to choose between food and oil this winter! (P. S. I'm another who will anxiously await the collards recipe.)
bbe congratulations on sorta becoming part of the community you often seem to despise.
KellyLark, just because I am honest and say what I think doesn't mean I despise. How funny that you conflate the two. Also, I am not and never will be a beta or a beta wanna be. I refuse to suck up to people to get ratings.
Just for the record, this is the third time one of my posts has wandered into the top 5 in 24 hours rating rat race. Figs and frugality sell. Although the echo chamber posts get a surprising number of ratings all things considered. Plus you would not believe the indignant emails they generate.
Feel free to stop on by any time though Kelly. I like your sass. OS needs more sass.
Lisa Kern, when I bought the house I bought the house I have now it had two new 50 gallon conventional hot water heaters. I couldn't justify ripping them out and replacing them. So I unplugged one completely, but an insulation jacket on the other and timered it. When I am gone even only overnight, I unplug it completely.
I did install small tankless electric on demand systems at the main bathroom sink and the kitchen sink. I got them off ebay three or four years ago for less than a hundred bucks each and have had good results. You can get gas or electric tankless systems and their rating and quality can vary greatly. On one thing all experts agree and that is the savings.
Just for the record, this is the third time one of my posts has wandered into the top 5 in 24 hours rating rat race. Figs and frugality sell. Although the echo chamber posts get a surprising number of ratings all things considered. Plus you would not believe the indignant emails they generate.
Feel free to stop on by any time though Kelly. I like your sass. OS needs more sass.
Lisa Kern, when I bought the house I bought the house I have now it had two new 50 gallon conventional hot water heaters. I couldn't justify ripping them out and replacing them. So I unplugged one completely, but an insulation jacket on the other and timered it. When I am gone even only overnight, I unplug it completely.
I did install small tankless electric on demand systems at the main bathroom sink and the kitchen sink. I got them off ebay three or four years ago for less than a hundred bucks each and have had good results. You can get gas or electric tankless systems and their rating and quality can vary greatly. On one thing all experts agree and that is the savings.
"It's so nice to have a man around the house."
Lacking that, it's nice to have a girlfriend who will lend you her man around the house as I lend mine. I am pretty handy myself but still am fairly oblivious to the magical workings of wrench and screw driver. Blue Eyes, you sound pretty handy to have around and have saved lots of money doing things yourself.
As the economic ruin makes its way towards us, alliances with others will help everyone. Your posting and grannypower's are wonderful examples of the generosity of people who reach out a hand to others.
I learn a lot of things from LT like the rating notice (for those who like getting ratings) that I--and others-- have adopted. However, the best thing I learned from him is this salutation:
peace and respect, Blue Eyes,
Stephanie
Lacking that, it's nice to have a girlfriend who will lend you her man around the house as I lend mine. I am pretty handy myself but still am fairly oblivious to the magical workings of wrench and screw driver. Blue Eyes, you sound pretty handy to have around and have saved lots of money doing things yourself.
As the economic ruin makes its way towards us, alliances with others will help everyone. Your posting and grannypower's are wonderful examples of the generosity of people who reach out a hand to others.
I learn a lot of things from LT like the rating notice (for those who like getting ratings) that I--and others-- have adopted. However, the best thing I learned from him is this salutation:
peace and respect, Blue Eyes,
Stephanie
BBE, great suggestions. You're right...I am most fortunate. This year, we have pumpkins, apricots, apples, pears, grapes and plums. Tomatoes, basil, and some herbs. We'd like to have a community garden next year and invite friends who know more about gardening than I do. We actually have a corral...after surviving 4 teenagers at the same time, I haven't had the heart to have more animals, but that could change! The netflx and Roku box (something I haven't heard of) will be looked into. Thanks.
As a certified plumbing engineer with over thirty years of experience designing plumbing systems, which includes the design of the domestic hot water system, for various kinds of residential buildings, from single family homes to high rise apartment houses to apartment complexes with hundreds of dwelling units, I believe that I am well qualified to speak about the differences between a storage type of water heating system (the tank water heater mentioned in item #3 above) and an instantaneous type water heating system (the tankless water heater mentioned in item #4 above).
First, while the cost of generating hot water for personal use (as opposed to hot water used for space heating) may, indeed, be as high as 20% to 30% of one’s total energy bill, taking the steps outlined by BBE more than likely will NOT result any significant savings nor will the these savings (if there are any savings) be enough to even pay back the cost of implementing these changes.
While installing a timer may seem like a good idea a quick analysis of the potential cost savings proves otherwise. Here’s why: with a modern, tank type water heater during periods of little or no hot water use the heating element will occasionally turn on, or fire, to maintain the water within the tank at the desired temperature, say 140⁰F. Now because modern storage tanks are well insulated, the need for the heating element to turn on to reheat the water occurs very infrequently. When one puts a timer on the water heater which completely shuts down the heater during these no/little use periods it will make little to no impact on the amount of energy being used since when the timer turns the system back on the water in the tank will still have to be reheated to the desired temperature before the heater can deliver hot water.
Again, the above analysis is based on a modern (less than 10 to 15 years old) storage water heater. If your water heater is over 15 years old then it is nearing the end of its life cycle and will most likely need replacement sometime in the very near future.
As for the suggestion to replace a tank type water heater with a tankless type water heater this is just flat out wrong. The cost to heat the water is much more dependent on the overall efficiency of the unit than by the type of unit (tank versus tankless). With either type of heater you will always be paying for the amount of hot water that is consumed, in other words, if you use 25 gallons of hot water per day you have to pay to heat that water regardless of of the type of heater used to heat the water. A heater with a higher efficiency rating will heat the water using less energy than a heater with a lower efficiency rating. Replacing a still working tank type water with a new tankless water heater will not provide the kinds of energy saving required to justify the expense.
Tankless water heaters have their place but the belief that these kinds of heaters are more cost effective than tank type water heaters is just plain wrong. And I haven’t even discussed the extra care which must taken in making sure that the tankless water heater is properly sized to provide adequate hot water to the home in question.
So to sum up: when replacing a water heater the single most important to look at is the overall efficiency rating of the replacement unit and not the type (tank versus tankless) of unit.
I hope the above helps to clear the air, er water.
First, while the cost of generating hot water for personal use (as opposed to hot water used for space heating) may, indeed, be as high as 20% to 30% of one’s total energy bill, taking the steps outlined by BBE more than likely will NOT result any significant savings nor will the these savings (if there are any savings) be enough to even pay back the cost of implementing these changes.
While installing a timer may seem like a good idea a quick analysis of the potential cost savings proves otherwise. Here’s why: with a modern, tank type water heater during periods of little or no hot water use the heating element will occasionally turn on, or fire, to maintain the water within the tank at the desired temperature, say 140⁰F. Now because modern storage tanks are well insulated, the need for the heating element to turn on to reheat the water occurs very infrequently. When one puts a timer on the water heater which completely shuts down the heater during these no/little use periods it will make little to no impact on the amount of energy being used since when the timer turns the system back on the water in the tank will still have to be reheated to the desired temperature before the heater can deliver hot water.
Again, the above analysis is based on a modern (less than 10 to 15 years old) storage water heater. If your water heater is over 15 years old then it is nearing the end of its life cycle and will most likely need replacement sometime in the very near future.
As for the suggestion to replace a tank type water heater with a tankless type water heater this is just flat out wrong. The cost to heat the water is much more dependent on the overall efficiency of the unit than by the type of unit (tank versus tankless). With either type of heater you will always be paying for the amount of hot water that is consumed, in other words, if you use 25 gallons of hot water per day you have to pay to heat that water regardless of of the type of heater used to heat the water. A heater with a higher efficiency rating will heat the water using less energy than a heater with a lower efficiency rating. Replacing a still working tank type water with a new tankless water heater will not provide the kinds of energy saving required to justify the expense.
Tankless water heaters have their place but the belief that these kinds of heaters are more cost effective than tank type water heaters is just plain wrong. And I haven’t even discussed the extra care which must taken in making sure that the tankless water heater is properly sized to provide adequate hot water to the home in question.
So to sum up: when replacing a water heater the single most important to look at is the overall efficiency rating of the replacement unit and not the type (tank versus tankless) of unit.
I hope the above helps to clear the air, er water.
Ralphp, I shoot pool with a master plumber who disagrees with you. He turned me on to tankless heaters, but the last place he would be is on OS. I do appreciate you taking the time to write that comment as it spurred me to look at more recent research. Also, if you have a particular bone to pick with tankless water heaters due to experience you have had with them professionally, I'd appreciate it if you would tell those tales as I am always looking for more opinions.
Regarding timers on tank models, My dad was/is using a timer on a tank as old as I am, so he is saving money. He religiously empties the tank of sediment and the damn thing keeps on running. I've tried to get him to replace it with a newer model, tank or tankless, but he isn't interested. Unless a house is newer construction, it probably doesn't have a super efficient modern tank heater like you mentioned and a timer can make a difference on those less efficient tank heaters as can an insulation blanket.
Regarding tank vs. tankless, the make and model and gas vs. electric also factor into energy cost which makes the savings calculus even more complicated. Yes, the newest most efficient tank heaters can compare to tankless, but you did not factor in the additional savings in water use by using multiple tankless installations around the house -- which reduces the amount of water run down the drain while you wait for the hot water to get to the other side of the house from a tank not to mention upstairs. Having the two smaller units installed at the sinks that get the most use has dropped my bill perceptibly. Plus tankless systems have a longer usable life expectancy than tank heaters. My ultimate goal is to have about five point of use tankless installations sized appropriately for the draw around the house, but I am waiting for the fifty gallon tanks to go toes up first and in the interim efficiencies may increase even more.
You did qualify your blanket rejection of tankless by saying one must look at the efficiencies of all the models whether they are tank or tankless and that is a very good valid point. But the longer life of tankless, not having huge amounts of water kept heating throughout the day when I only use it in the morning and evening, and not having to run water down the drain while waiting for the hot to get through the pipe still has me leaning toward efficient tankless over tank.
A quick search turns up articles/research that supports both of us depending on the bias of the source:
http://www.tankless-water-heaters.com/gasvelectric.htm
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/pardonourdust/2008/06/tank-water-heat.html
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0
Of course, the best way to save money on hot water is to use less of it, especially in the shower which is the number one household consumer of hot water. I bought a navy shower head for six bucks years ago and have dropped my use considerably.
Search "Alsons-Incredible-Power-Shower-Chrome" and it will come up. Amazon wants almost ten bucks for it, but I found it for under six at a mom and pop hardware store. It is also great for low flow situations.
Of course taking a true Navy shower can save thousands of gallons per year. You get wet, turn the water off, soap up, turn the water back on and rinse off. One study showed this way reduced water consumption 15,000 gallons per person.
Regarding timers on tank models, My dad was/is using a timer on a tank as old as I am, so he is saving money. He religiously empties the tank of sediment and the damn thing keeps on running. I've tried to get him to replace it with a newer model, tank or tankless, but he isn't interested. Unless a house is newer construction, it probably doesn't have a super efficient modern tank heater like you mentioned and a timer can make a difference on those less efficient tank heaters as can an insulation blanket.
Regarding tank vs. tankless, the make and model and gas vs. electric also factor into energy cost which makes the savings calculus even more complicated. Yes, the newest most efficient tank heaters can compare to tankless, but you did not factor in the additional savings in water use by using multiple tankless installations around the house -- which reduces the amount of water run down the drain while you wait for the hot water to get to the other side of the house from a tank not to mention upstairs. Having the two smaller units installed at the sinks that get the most use has dropped my bill perceptibly. Plus tankless systems have a longer usable life expectancy than tank heaters. My ultimate goal is to have about five point of use tankless installations sized appropriately for the draw around the house, but I am waiting for the fifty gallon tanks to go toes up first and in the interim efficiencies may increase even more.
You did qualify your blanket rejection of tankless by saying one must look at the efficiencies of all the models whether they are tank or tankless and that is a very good valid point. But the longer life of tankless, not having huge amounts of water kept heating throughout the day when I only use it in the morning and evening, and not having to run water down the drain while waiting for the hot to get through the pipe still has me leaning toward efficient tankless over tank.
A quick search turns up articles/research that supports both of us depending on the bias of the source:
http://www.tankless-water-heaters.com/gasvelectric.htm
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/pardonourdust/2008/06/tank-water-heat.html
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0
Of course, the best way to save money on hot water is to use less of it, especially in the shower which is the number one household consumer of hot water. I bought a navy shower head for six bucks years ago and have dropped my use considerably.
Search "Alsons-Incredible-Power-Shower-Chrome" and it will come up. Amazon wants almost ten bucks for it, but I found it for under six at a mom and pop hardware store. It is also great for low flow situations.
Of course taking a true Navy shower can save thousands of gallons per year. You get wet, turn the water off, soap up, turn the water back on and rinse off. One study showed this way reduced water consumption 15,000 gallons per person.
Thanks for the rapid and well researched response. I’ll try to take your points one by one.
“Ralphp, I shoot pool with a master plumber who disagrees with you. He turned me on to tankless heaters, but the last place he would be is on OS”
Plumbers stand to make money when replacing a tank water heater with a tankless water heater simply because the there is more work involved. In addition, there’s always the chance that due to people believing that there is huge energy savings involved (as is the case when one replaces an old water heater with a new, high efficiency model) regardless of the age of the water heater, some people will be replacing very good tank water heaters with tankless water heaters in an effort to realize a very nominal savings.
Please understand that I’m not implying that your pool shooting buddy would do such a thing, it’s just that it’s not as cut and dried as he would have you believe. For example, in a household where two or more may need to shower at the same time the BTU input required for a tankless water heater may be such that the existing flue (in the case of a gas fired unit) may be too small. Tank water heaters typically require a lower BTU input than tankless water heaters for a given load.
“ I do appreciate you taking the time to write that comment as it spurred me to look at more recent research. Also, if you have a particular bone to pick with tankless water heaters due to experience you have had with them professionally, I'd appreciate it if you would tell those tales as I am always looking for more opinions.”
Thank you. Professionally I haven’t had bad experience with either tank or tankless water heaters. Although in a residential building, such as an apartment house, I always like to have some hot water storage available. And while I’m at it I should give you some additional food for thought: one of the main reasons that tankless water heaters are so popular in Europe (and possibly Japan, but I don’t know for sure) is that the vast majority of their apartment buildings do not have a central water heater and the corresponding hot water distribution system and therefore each apartment has its own water heater. Tankless water heaters require less space than tank water heaters and are perfect for use in an apartment where space is at a premium. A correctly designed, properly installed and well maintain central domestic water heater system is far more energy efficient than individual domestic water heaters for any multiple dwelling with, say 8 or more units. Sorry for my occasional lapses into “techno” speak but I’ve been down this road many times before.
“Regarding timers on tank models, My dad was/is using a timer on a tank as old as I am, so he is saving money. He religiously empties the tank of sediment and the damn thing keeps on running. I've tried to get him to replace it with a newer model, tank or tankless, but he isn't interested. Unless a house is newer construction, it probably doesn't have a super efficient modern tank heater like you mentioned and a timer can make a difference on those less efficient tank heaters as can an insulation blanket.”
I can’t disagree with the above other than to say that the money would be much better spent on a new, high efficiency water heater, regardless of type.
“Regarding tank vs. tankless, the make and model and gas vs. electric also factor into energy cost which makes the savings calculus even more complicated. Yes, the newest most efficient tank heaters can compare to tankless, but you did not factor in the additional savings in water use by using multiple tankless installations around the house -- which reduces the amount of water run down the drain while you wait for the hot water to get to the other side of the house from a tank not to mention upstairs. Having the two smaller units installed at the sinks that get the most use has dropped my bill perceptibly. Plus tankless systems have a longer usable life expectancy than tank heaters. My ultimate goal is to have about five point of use tankless installations sized appropriately for the draw around the house, but I am waiting for the fifty gallon tanks to go toes up first and in the interim efficiencies may increase even more.”
The above paragraph is an entirely different kettle of fish. In the case of electric water heaters, i.e. replacing a single electric tank water heater with several point-of- use (as their called in the “trade”) electric water heaters, than it may be a good, but somewhat expensive, idea. In the case of gas and oil fired water heaters it would only be an option if you were to install gas or oil fired point-of-use water heaters. If you were to replace a single, central gas or oil fired water heater with electric point-of-use water heaters than it would result in a much less energy efficient system since electricity is much less efficient than gas or oil when used to heat water.
“You did qualify your blanket rejection of tankless by saying one must look at the efficiencies of all the models whether they are tank or tankless and that is a very good valid point. But the longer life of tankless, not having huge amounts of water kept heating throughout the day when I only use it in the morning and evening, and not having to run water down the drain while waiting for the hot to get through the pipe still has me leaning toward efficient tankless over tank.”
Sounds like you believed what is written on the first of your links below. While some of what they present as fact may be true, the vast majority of it is either flat out incorrect or simply doesn’t bother to give you all the details, often very important details. Here’s a quick one off the top of my head: the electricity required to heat the incoming 50⁰F cold water for a energy efficient shower with a 3 GPM flow rate is just over 22.4 KW (based on 100⁰F water temperature in the shower). I don’t even think that one can that kind of KW output from the normal 120 volt, single phase house electrical system. One would need a 220 volt, three phase electrical system, which I’m quite sure must households do not have. Damn, I just scanned over the other two links and they do mention the electrical issues.
Original links:
http://www.tankless-water-heaters.com/gasvelectric.htm
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/pardonourdust/2008/06/tank-water-heat.html
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0
“Of course, the best way to save money on hot water is to use less of it, especially in the shower which is the number one household consumer of hot water. I bought a navy shower head for six bucks years ago and have dropped my use considerably. “
Absolutely correct. A few words of caution: many people find that low flow shower heads feel like the shower has less pressure than a non-low flow shower head; especially if the low flow shower head is replacing an older, higher flow shower head. I don’t know why this is the case but that’s always been one of the major complaints regarding low flow shower heads.
Anyway thanks for your very thoughtful and thought provoking post and response. I am enjoying this exchange and I’m very glad to be able to share some of professional knowledge in the hopes that it will enable people to make more informed purchasing decisions.
“Ralphp, I shoot pool with a master plumber who disagrees with you. He turned me on to tankless heaters, but the last place he would be is on OS”
Plumbers stand to make money when replacing a tank water heater with a tankless water heater simply because the there is more work involved. In addition, there’s always the chance that due to people believing that there is huge energy savings involved (as is the case when one replaces an old water heater with a new, high efficiency model) regardless of the age of the water heater, some people will be replacing very good tank water heaters with tankless water heaters in an effort to realize a very nominal savings.
Please understand that I’m not implying that your pool shooting buddy would do such a thing, it’s just that it’s not as cut and dried as he would have you believe. For example, in a household where two or more may need to shower at the same time the BTU input required for a tankless water heater may be such that the existing flue (in the case of a gas fired unit) may be too small. Tank water heaters typically require a lower BTU input than tankless water heaters for a given load.
“ I do appreciate you taking the time to write that comment as it spurred me to look at more recent research. Also, if you have a particular bone to pick with tankless water heaters due to experience you have had with them professionally, I'd appreciate it if you would tell those tales as I am always looking for more opinions.”
Thank you. Professionally I haven’t had bad experience with either tank or tankless water heaters. Although in a residential building, such as an apartment house, I always like to have some hot water storage available. And while I’m at it I should give you some additional food for thought: one of the main reasons that tankless water heaters are so popular in Europe (and possibly Japan, but I don’t know for sure) is that the vast majority of their apartment buildings do not have a central water heater and the corresponding hot water distribution system and therefore each apartment has its own water heater. Tankless water heaters require less space than tank water heaters and are perfect for use in an apartment where space is at a premium. A correctly designed, properly installed and well maintain central domestic water heater system is far more energy efficient than individual domestic water heaters for any multiple dwelling with, say 8 or more units. Sorry for my occasional lapses into “techno” speak but I’ve been down this road many times before.
“Regarding timers on tank models, My dad was/is using a timer on a tank as old as I am, so he is saving money. He religiously empties the tank of sediment and the damn thing keeps on running. I've tried to get him to replace it with a newer model, tank or tankless, but he isn't interested. Unless a house is newer construction, it probably doesn't have a super efficient modern tank heater like you mentioned and a timer can make a difference on those less efficient tank heaters as can an insulation blanket.”
I can’t disagree with the above other than to say that the money would be much better spent on a new, high efficiency water heater, regardless of type.
“Regarding tank vs. tankless, the make and model and gas vs. electric also factor into energy cost which makes the savings calculus even more complicated. Yes, the newest most efficient tank heaters can compare to tankless, but you did not factor in the additional savings in water use by using multiple tankless installations around the house -- which reduces the amount of water run down the drain while you wait for the hot water to get to the other side of the house from a tank not to mention upstairs. Having the two smaller units installed at the sinks that get the most use has dropped my bill perceptibly. Plus tankless systems have a longer usable life expectancy than tank heaters. My ultimate goal is to have about five point of use tankless installations sized appropriately for the draw around the house, but I am waiting for the fifty gallon tanks to go toes up first and in the interim efficiencies may increase even more.”
The above paragraph is an entirely different kettle of fish. In the case of electric water heaters, i.e. replacing a single electric tank water heater with several point-of- use (as their called in the “trade”) electric water heaters, than it may be a good, but somewhat expensive, idea. In the case of gas and oil fired water heaters it would only be an option if you were to install gas or oil fired point-of-use water heaters. If you were to replace a single, central gas or oil fired water heater with electric point-of-use water heaters than it would result in a much less energy efficient system since electricity is much less efficient than gas or oil when used to heat water.
“You did qualify your blanket rejection of tankless by saying one must look at the efficiencies of all the models whether they are tank or tankless and that is a very good valid point. But the longer life of tankless, not having huge amounts of water kept heating throughout the day when I only use it in the morning and evening, and not having to run water down the drain while waiting for the hot to get through the pipe still has me leaning toward efficient tankless over tank.”
Sounds like you believed what is written on the first of your links below. While some of what they present as fact may be true, the vast majority of it is either flat out incorrect or simply doesn’t bother to give you all the details, often very important details. Here’s a quick one off the top of my head: the electricity required to heat the incoming 50⁰F cold water for a energy efficient shower with a 3 GPM flow rate is just over 22.4 KW (based on 100⁰F water temperature in the shower). I don’t even think that one can that kind of KW output from the normal 120 volt, single phase house electrical system. One would need a 220 volt, three phase electrical system, which I’m quite sure must households do not have. Damn, I just scanned over the other two links and they do mention the electrical issues.
Original links:
http://www.tankless-water-heaters.com/gasvelectric.htm
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/pardonourdust/2008/06/tank-water-heat.html
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/Archives/8cf9e86f7c298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0
“Of course, the best way to save money on hot water is to use less of it, especially in the shower which is the number one household consumer of hot water. I bought a navy shower head for six bucks years ago and have dropped my use considerably. “
Absolutely correct. A few words of caution: many people find that low flow shower heads feel like the shower has less pressure than a non-low flow shower head; especially if the low flow shower head is replacing an older, higher flow shower head. I don’t know why this is the case but that’s always been one of the major complaints regarding low flow shower heads.
Anyway thanks for your very thoughtful and thought provoking post and response. I am enjoying this exchange and I’m very glad to be able to share some of professional knowledge in the hopes that it will enable people to make more informed purchasing decisions.
ralphp, you are my new go to guy for technical plumbing questions.
The whole water/energy savings issue on the tank vs. tankless issue is interesting enough that I think you ought to take your first comment, my comment in response, and your reply and make them a blog post so that it has a chance to be read more. This post is already old and stale and won't get much more traffic.
Just a thought. Maybe I'm way more of a do-it-yourselfer than the average OSer, but I think people would be interested in your expertise.
The whole water/energy savings issue on the tank vs. tankless issue is interesting enough that I think you ought to take your first comment, my comment in response, and your reply and make them a blog post so that it has a chance to be read more. This post is already old and stale and won't get much more traffic.
Just a thought. Maybe I'm way more of a do-it-yourselfer than the average OSer, but I think people would be interested in your expertise.
I never knew: I ALWAYS take a Navy Shower. Now I have a name for it.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thanks for the heads-up on my post this morning. Here I thought I was being so clever... time for another cup of tea.
Awesome post - I think Granny should be the next Secretary of the Treasury!
Just stopping by to see if you posted that collards recipe yet. Tomorrow is Foodie Tuesday (hint, hint).
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