KEEP THE PRESSURE ON! Obama Calls for Changes to the Criminal Code
Tugging on the Torture Thread
Penis Cutting: Torture or State Sponsored Body Modification?
Options for a CIA/Justice/White House Torture Probe
Dick Cheney, National Coward
Torture: The Supporters
Tortured decision
Generals and Admirals
All Torture, All the Time
Cheney Calls for Probe of McCain, POWs
Take ten minutes today to do two three four NOW FIVE SIX SEVEN painless things.
EVEN IF YOU CALLED AND WROTE THE LETTERS ALREADY, DO IT AGAIN -- NUMBER SIX IS A FRESH ACTION AS OF 23 APRIL COURTESY OF AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL!
1) Call the White House at 202-456-1111 (or TTY/TDD: 202-456-6213)
Tell the nice staffer that answers the phone that in order to uphold and defend the Constitution, the criminal prosecution of officials - high and low - is an absolute necessity. Prosecution of Bush-era officials is not retribution. It is the maintenance of law and the repudiation of torture and other illegal acts.
2) Send a letter to your Representatives.
Clicking on the link will take you to IndictBushNow.org which has a form prepared to make it easy. They provide a prewritten paragraph which you can tweak and add to as you wish. The letter will be dispatched to both of your Senators and your Congressional representative.
***Be sure to correct their spelling of maintenance. They made an error and have it spelled "maintainance."***
Easy form to fill out and send an email to the president. The White House phone line has been pretty busy, so this is another thing to do while waiting for them to pick up.
4) AND 5) Call for the Impeachment of Jay Bybee by writing your Congresional Representative and by writing John Conyers, Chair of the House Judiciary Committee.
Use Progressive Democrat of America's web page to generate and send a letter to your Congressional Representative calling for the impeachment of Jay Bybee. Bybee is the former DOJ lawyer who authored a torture memo and now has a life appointment to sit as a federal appeals court judge. See Dave Swanson's excellent blog, ImpeachBybee.org, for the sordid details of Bybees war crimes.
Use the Center for Consitutional Right's page to generate a letter to John Conyers and the House Jusiciary Committee. Sending this letter also puts your name on their petition. Two birds, one stone.
Amnesty International has a new letter generator up that sends letters to Obama, your senators and your congressional representative requesting that "...any investigation must be independent, backed by the full force of law, and have enough funding to uncover the full truth behind the U.S. torture program." As usual, you can tweak the verbiage they provide as much or as little as you'd like.
If you are beyond disgusted and want to take the time (less than an hour to sign and call them all), here are more things you can do from your keyboard courtesy of David Swanson's AfterDowningStreet.org.
WHAT YOU CAN DO:
Prosecutions:
Federal:
Add your organization or individual name to joint statement requesting a Special Prosecutor. Ask organizations you're in touch with to sign on. The demand for prosecution has been supported by many members of Congress.
Sign a petition asking Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute any and all government officials who have participated in war crimes. Sign now.
Collect signatures in the real world by printing out this PDF. Please enter the data you collect on the petition online and/or mail the completed (or partially completed) forms to JDS, 4407 Garrison Street NW, Washington DC 20016.
Phone and Email and fax the Office of the Attorney General at 202-514-2001 AskDOJ@usdoj.gov fax:202-307-6777 to request a Special Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute any and all government officials who have participated in war crimes.
The ACLU now has its own petition to Holder: Sign it now.
Firedoglake now has one too: Sign it here.
In June 2008, 56 Democratic Congress members, led by Congressman John Conyers, wrote to Attorney General Mukasey asking for a Special Prosecutor. Conyers and Congressman Jerrold Nadler wrote to Mukasey again in December 2008. Please ask them to re-send these letters to the new Attorney General, Eric Holder. Conyers 202-225-5126, Nadler 202-225-5635. Nadler says he's drafting a new letter. Here's a letter we've drafted that you can ask your congress member to send.
Also sign the No Amnesty for Torturers Petition to Congress.
Congressman John Conyers has proposed extending statutes of limitations on Bush-Cheney crimes. Help make this happen.
Contact the State Department's Office of War Crimes Issues and urge them to ask Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute any and all government officials who have participated in war crimes.
International:The International Criminal Court can also indict. Please request it.
And petition the United Nations to set up an international tribunal.
Foreign:
Our friends at the Center for Constitutional Rights are coordinating with attorneys pursuing prosecutions in other countries under universal jurisdiction.
The British and Spanish governments have begun criminal investigations.
Best of Torture on Open Salon that you won't see on the front page:
Dennis Loo
Obama Calls for Changes to the Criminal Code
Tugging on the Torture Thread
Penis Cutting: Torture or State Sponsored Body Modification?
Why Obama Released the Torture Memos
"Lack a Certain Polish:" Torture and the American Conscience
Maj. Gen. Taguba Calls for War Crimes Commission
_________________
Torture Revealed Yet Again
Personal Torture Laws: Your Tax Dollars at Work
ImpeachBybee.org
_________________
Monte Canfield
President Obama Confronts Evil and Blinks, Again!
The Ethics of The President's Decision on Torture
Options for a CIA/Justice/White House Torture Probe
_________________
TadCF
WHAT ABOUT TORTURE?
_________________
norman kelley
Jesus and Torture: Or, What If Jesus Was Waterboarded?
American Water Torture: Once Is Not Enough
_________________
Norwonk
Dick Cheney, National Coward
Prosecution of Torturers? That's So Banana Republic!
The Defense Phil Spector Should Have Used
Barack Obama, War Criminal?
_________________
trevor seitz
Does Torture Have A Statute Of Limitations?
_________________
libertarius
Obama and Torture: Did He Say Just Following Orders?
_________________
Gary Herstein
The Works (or, do I hear water?)
_________________
Paul J. O'Rourke
Politics and Torture
_________________
Tom Cordle
Tortured Principles and Temporary Practicality
_________________
Kent Pitman
Hypocrisy and High Collar Crimes
Rule of Law
_________________
Douglas Moran
Torture: The Under-the-Radar Folks
Torture: The Supporters
_________________
Carey Krause
Morals and CIA Memos: Can we practice what we preach?
_________________
markinjapan
Tortured decision
Generals and Admirals
Obama tries to put one over on us
_________________
Lisa Solod Warren
"Trickle Down Torture"
_________________
Mick Arran
Cheney Defends Torture
_________________
Noahvose
TORTURE: Principles or Security?
_________________
Paul Levinson
The Deeper Issue in Investigating Bush Admin Torture Policy
_________________
fingerlakeswanderer
Where Was the Torture Outrage in 2005?
_________________
D.M. Schwartz
Play the Torture Tapes
_________________
OEsheepdog
Torture Works? A movie that turns that idea on its head.
_________________
Faith Paulsen
My 30-Year Learning Curve on the Torture Issue
_________________
J.E. Robertson
Cheney Throws Last Shred of Credibility to the Wind
_________________
Lea Lane
Torture Prosecution: “Conviction” To Counter “Passion"
_________________
Sally Swift
Abu Ghraib Tortured Us All
_________________
Kind of Blue
Christopher Hitchens On Video Being Water Boarded.
_________________
Bart Hawkins Kreps
Decriminalizing torture
_________________
Owl_Says_Who
The Torturers Could Have Been You . . . or Me
_________________
DJohn
Is The Speaker in Trouble?
What Would YOU Do? Remember, NO "Torture"!
_________________
Tony Wang
Obama: Torture Investigations Distracting
All Torture, All the Time
_________________
ESSENTIAL SATIRE:
Procopius
Breaking News: Solzhenitsyn Nobel Posthumously Rescinded!
_________________
The Desperate Blogger
Cheney Calls for Probe of McCain, POWs
_________________
The Nudity - lest we forget:
Do something to stop this from happening ever again!
Comments
Thanks for making it easy to protest.
I'm guilty of forgetting; thanks for making me remember.
I'm guilty of forgetting; thanks for making me remember.
I am all about the easy.
Feel free to leave a comment saying you called and/or sent the letter to your Reps.
That or leave links to other actions people can take.
Feel free to leave a comment saying you called and/or sent the letter to your Reps.
That or leave links to other actions people can take.
And do click over and flip Monte, Swanson and Prof Loo the finger. What they have to say is enlightening.
Do you know how hard this is to do BBE? I am hovering over this post for the past half hour unable to move anywhere and yet have not done anything. You will say I am a coward.I am.
No one wants this more than me. And not even for all the reasons that others usually give. For the simple fact that if the old criminals are not consequence-d we will breed new ones.
Yet I am frozen in time.
What is this fear that grips the common man's soul?
No one wants this more than me. And not even for all the reasons that others usually give. For the simple fact that if the old criminals are not consequence-d we will breed new ones.
Yet I am frozen in time.
What is this fear that grips the common man's soul?
Just start easy with a petition or the letter to your representatives.
Each merely requires filling in some blanks and clicking send.
You will amazed at how easy it is.
Work up to calling the White House and/or your representatives.
Before you know it, you'll be marching in the streets and occupying your Senator's local office.
Each merely requires filling in some blanks and clicking send.
You will amazed at how easy it is.
Work up to calling the White House and/or your representatives.
Before you know it, you'll be marching in the streets and occupying your Senator's local office.
:) I was merely voicing what most people who dont protest would say.
My whole life is one big protest.
What you say is right.
All it takes is the first step. But the common man usually thinks of anonymity and just being left alone to pursue their own life. Very rarely will you find that first person who will pick up the banner and face the bullets. Just bringing that into focus to generate some activity which I think this post deserves. It should be on the cover.
Rated of course. Thanks
My whole life is one big protest.
What you say is right.
All it takes is the first step. But the common man usually thinks of anonymity and just being left alone to pursue their own life. Very rarely will you find that first person who will pick up the banner and face the bullets. Just bringing that into focus to generate some activity which I think this post deserves. It should be on the cover.
Rated of course. Thanks
Very good point.
Watching the morning pundits attempting to justify the torture exposed by those CIA memos as just the powers that be doing what is required to keep us safe is sickening.
I'm never on the cover - except for a couple of cooking posts way back in the day - because I am all about the nudity. But I am ok with that. The nudity brings in the views.
Today's nudity will be a sad disappointment, but it is important for us to see what has been done in our name.
Watching the morning pundits attempting to justify the torture exposed by those CIA memos as just the powers that be doing what is required to keep us safe is sickening.
I'm never on the cover - except for a couple of cooking posts way back in the day - because I am all about the nudity. But I am ok with that. The nudity brings in the views.
Today's nudity will be a sad disappointment, but it is important for us to see what has been done in our name.
Jesus.
I need to know where you got the photos particularly the collage (1st in set).
Much to do in real time today, but I'm off now to fill out the form.
Rated with pain and disgust.
I need to know where you got the photos particularly the collage (1st in set).
Much to do in real time today, but I'm off now to fill out the form.
Rated with pain and disgust.
Just customized and printed letters to Senator Richard Burr (R-NC), Senator Kay Hagan (D-NC) and Congressman David Price (D-NC). In the morning mail. Easy to do. Thanks.
PS:The nudity is not as much fun as usual.
Rated
PS:The nudity is not as much fun as usual.
Rated
Just did searches on the web for Abu Ghraib photos.
There were so many to pick from it was sad.
The collage is from Reuters. I'll email you the specific link.
There were so many to pick from it was sad.
The collage is from Reuters. I'll email you the specific link.
Not good but neither is what these young men are doing either. Can you include some Al Quaeda training videos along with these perhaps? How about the ones where they kill dogs...and mow down each other in the streets with AK's. I don't condone this but I realize that someone has to maintain power and control over the other...one is deluded to believe that if we sat down and served tea that these men...men who have joined a cause to eradicate Americans and Israeli's would act the better. If hostile men and nations don't have deterrance and knowledge that life will get really, really bad for them should they choose to wage Jihad...they will just keep going...like a child throwing a tantrum on lots of sugar.
The problem new blog is that many of the thousands of men we hold prisoner around the world and torture have nothing to do with terrorism or Al Qaeda.
Many were turned in by their neighbors for bounties or to avenge personal grudges. Of course now after years in our cells being mistreated they probably hate the USA with a fiery anger and who can blame them?
How many successful prosecutions have there been? If these guys were guilty wouldn't there have been more?
And if you wish to post training videos, etc, feel free to do so on your own blog.
Many were turned in by their neighbors for bounties or to avenge personal grudges. Of course now after years in our cells being mistreated they probably hate the USA with a fiery anger and who can blame them?
How many successful prosecutions have there been? If these guys were guilty wouldn't there have been more?
And if you wish to post training videos, etc, feel free to do so on your own blog.
I will do this but not today, probably tomorrow but will post here to let you know. and as an aside; I got my Three cups of Tea book yesterday and made the donation to the institute.
Thanks Ariana. You've given me the opportunity to shill for them again.
In case people who are reading this thread wonder, the institute is the Central Asia Institute started by Greg Mortenson to build schools along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
CAI takes pennies and turns them into educations for the poorest of the poor. They have done more for the cause of peace in that region than all the billions we have pissed away with our illegal war there.
In case people who are reading this thread wonder, the institute is the Central Asia Institute started by Greg Mortenson to build schools along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
CAI takes pennies and turns them into educations for the poorest of the poor. They have done more for the cause of peace in that region than all the billions we have pissed away with our illegal war there.
Newblog:
Do you think that meeting inhumanity with inhumanity is the way to go?
You say: "Not good but neither is what these young men are doing either."
As BBE points out, the vast majority of those who've been detained and tortured are guilty of nothing at all except incurring the jealousy of others who turned them in for bounty, or going once too many times to inquire about why so many of their neighbors were being picked up and tortured by US soldiers.
Torturing prisoners doesn't deter. It inflames.
Torture doesn't produce good information. It merely coerces false confessions.
But even more important than this, even if torture did work: if you think that it is moral to do these monstrous things to others than you are like the Spanish inquisitors who tortured in the name of god.
Do you think that meeting inhumanity with inhumanity is the way to go?
You say: "Not good but neither is what these young men are doing either."
As BBE points out, the vast majority of those who've been detained and tortured are guilty of nothing at all except incurring the jealousy of others who turned them in for bounty, or going once too many times to inquire about why so many of their neighbors were being picked up and tortured by US soldiers.
Torturing prisoners doesn't deter. It inflames.
Torture doesn't produce good information. It merely coerces false confessions.
But even more important than this, even if torture did work: if you think that it is moral to do these monstrous things to others than you are like the Spanish inquisitors who tortured in the name of god.
right on
I've been raising hell for a year to get a special prosecutor appointed . If Clinton had Starr up his ass for four years because of a blow-job, Bush & co. should be prosecuted, post haste. I'v been writing review after review on Newstrust.net for these torturers and murderers to get what coming to them. Now, Obama is talking about looking forward not back. I can't help but think that a deal was put in place before the election. Stranger things have happened. Rated for Bush/Chaney are murdering assholes.
I recognize the feelings of futility having written my representatives monthly asking for impeachment for seven years. When I call their offices, the staffers recognize my voice. But my call or letter or signature might be the one that tips the issue and so I call, write and sign.
Bush and Cheney are war criminals and if Obama continues down the road as he has been with Afghanistan and Pakistan it will be impossible to conclude he is any better. We must continue to demand justice.
Bush and Cheney are war criminals and if Obama continues down the road as he has been with Afghanistan and Pakistan it will be impossible to conclude he is any better. We must continue to demand justice.
Great response to newblog.
Prof Loo is one of my OS heroes. I wish he was on the morning news shows arguing for prosecution and not the mealy mouthed Obama apologists.
His blog posts are very much worth reading.
His blog posts are very much worth reading.
BBE, Mr. Loo...I'm commenting on the assumption the detainees who have been treated harshly are in fact operatives hell bent on destruction. In the case of innocence of mistaken identity...of course not. Is it presumptive to assume the presumptuousness in regards towards application of "torture" is being handled professionally and accurately? Apparently so. If they can't get the facts straight about who is who in this dark and nefarious world...then I would say YES...banning this across the board (no pun intended) would be the judicious and prudent thing to do. However if there are certain players that are disgusting and murderous in their conduct and will...then NO...allow CIA,DOD to continue.
Thank you so much BBE.
As for the morning talk shows, I would relish such a chance. However, for that to happen, there would have to be dramatic and radical shift in the balance of forces in this country and internationally. I look forward to and work daily for that scenario to come to pass.
For now I'd be pleased with a stint on The Daily Show or even an OS EP. The material that does make EP seems to be almost invariably within political boundaries that go no further than entreaties to the Democrats. (I say "almost" because I don't know all the EP's that have ever appeared.)
Political material that points out the collusion between the Democrats and the GOP - a clear, unarguable, fact, demonstrable by a multitude of examples - has not so far become an EP.
Perhaps this will change. I certainly hope so.
The stakes involved here are immense: what is more consequential than this - a president installs torture as OFFICIAL, everyday practice, and finally admits it, and gets away with it; a president violates the law by spying on all of us, doing so WITHIN WEEKS of assuming an illegally seized presidency in 2001, gets caught and instead of being impeached, Congress sanctifies his felonious actions retroactively; a president and Congress suspend a "fundamental principle of Anglo-American law" (Obama's words) - habeas corpus - and a few within the rest of the political leadership class does no more than grumble a little; the new president de facto overturns the Nuremberg Verdict on atrocities by saying that this is a "time for reflection not retribution," permitting sadists in three piece suits to go unpunished; the new president shows himself to be no better than his monstrous predecessor, as he allows torture to go on and get even worse in Guantanamo and funds the expansion of Bagram where he has already declared the six hundred prisoners there have no right to habeas corpus and where he plans to send many of the Gitmo prisoners to; the new president escalates the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan, creating a humanitarian emergency in both countries and displacing a million people in Pakistan alone?
As for the morning talk shows, I would relish such a chance. However, for that to happen, there would have to be dramatic and radical shift in the balance of forces in this country and internationally. I look forward to and work daily for that scenario to come to pass.
For now I'd be pleased with a stint on The Daily Show or even an OS EP. The material that does make EP seems to be almost invariably within political boundaries that go no further than entreaties to the Democrats. (I say "almost" because I don't know all the EP's that have ever appeared.)
Political material that points out the collusion between the Democrats and the GOP - a clear, unarguable, fact, demonstrable by a multitude of examples - has not so far become an EP.
Perhaps this will change. I certainly hope so.
The stakes involved here are immense: what is more consequential than this - a president installs torture as OFFICIAL, everyday practice, and finally admits it, and gets away with it; a president violates the law by spying on all of us, doing so WITHIN WEEKS of assuming an illegally seized presidency in 2001, gets caught and instead of being impeached, Congress sanctifies his felonious actions retroactively; a president and Congress suspend a "fundamental principle of Anglo-American law" (Obama's words) - habeas corpus - and a few within the rest of the political leadership class does no more than grumble a little; the new president de facto overturns the Nuremberg Verdict on atrocities by saying that this is a "time for reflection not retribution," permitting sadists in three piece suits to go unpunished; the new president shows himself to be no better than his monstrous predecessor, as he allows torture to go on and get even worse in Guantanamo and funds the expansion of Bagram where he has already declared the six hundred prisoners there have no right to habeas corpus and where he plans to send many of the Gitmo prisoners to; the new president escalates the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan, creating a humanitarian emergency in both countries and displacing a million people in Pakistan alone?
Prof Loo, EPs are an interesting alchemy. As more people wake up to the perfidy of our current President, you may find yourself more popular.
Good of you to come back and clarify, New Blog.
We hold thousands of men prisoner right now. Most of them are not terrorists. Not only do we torture these men, we kill them.
Here is a partial list of the men killed in our name:
Abd Hamad Mowhoush (smothering)
Abdul Jaleel (blunt force injuries and asphyxia)
Abdul Wahid (blunt force injuries)
Abdul Wali (blunt force injuries)
Abu Malik Kenami (hypothermia)
Dilar Dababa (blunt force injuries)
Dilawar (blunt force injuries)
Hamaady Kareem (gunshot)
Jamal Naseer (blunt force injuries)
Karim Hassan (gunshot)
Manadel al-Jamadi (blunt force injuries)
Mohammed Munim al-Izmerly (blunt force injuries)
Mohammed Sayari (blunt force injuries)
Muhamad Husain Kadir (gunshot)
Mullah Habibullah (blunt force injuries)
Nagem Sadun Hatab (strangulation)
Naser Ismail (gunshot)
Qassim Hassan (gunshot)
Tahah Ahmead Hanjil (gunshot)
Thaher Khaleefa Ahmed (gunshot)
Zaidoun Hassoun (drowning)
From HumanRightsFirst.org, "Since August 2002, nearly 100 detainees have died while in the hands of U.S. officials in the global “war on terror.” According to the U.S. military’s own classifications, 34 of these cases are suspected or confirmed homicides; Human Rights First has identified another 11 in which the facts suggest death as a result of physical abuse or harsh conditions of detention. In close to half the deaths Human Rights First surveyed, the cause of death remains officially undetermined or unannounced. Overall, eight people in U.S. custody were tortured to death."
I also recommend this article over at CounterPunch, Death By Torture: US Media Ignores Hard Evidence
Good of you to come back and clarify, New Blog.
We hold thousands of men prisoner right now. Most of them are not terrorists. Not only do we torture these men, we kill them.
Here is a partial list of the men killed in our name:
Abd Hamad Mowhoush (smothering)
Abdul Jaleel (blunt force injuries and asphyxia)
Abdul Wahid (blunt force injuries)
Abdul Wali (blunt force injuries)
Abu Malik Kenami (hypothermia)
Dilar Dababa (blunt force injuries)
Dilawar (blunt force injuries)
Hamaady Kareem (gunshot)
Jamal Naseer (blunt force injuries)
Karim Hassan (gunshot)
Manadel al-Jamadi (blunt force injuries)
Mohammed Munim al-Izmerly (blunt force injuries)
Mohammed Sayari (blunt force injuries)
Muhamad Husain Kadir (gunshot)
Mullah Habibullah (blunt force injuries)
Nagem Sadun Hatab (strangulation)
Naser Ismail (gunshot)
Qassim Hassan (gunshot)
Tahah Ahmead Hanjil (gunshot)
Thaher Khaleefa Ahmed (gunshot)
Zaidoun Hassoun (drowning)
From HumanRightsFirst.org, "Since August 2002, nearly 100 detainees have died while in the hands of U.S. officials in the global “war on terror.” According to the U.S. military’s own classifications, 34 of these cases are suspected or confirmed homicides; Human Rights First has identified another 11 in which the facts suggest death as a result of physical abuse or harsh conditions of detention. In close to half the deaths Human Rights First surveyed, the cause of death remains officially undetermined or unannounced. Overall, eight people in U.S. custody were tortured to death."
I also recommend this article over at CounterPunch, Death By Torture: US Media Ignores Hard Evidence
New blog: Happy to see that you think torture's wrong on innocents, who make up nearly all of the detainees. But you are still saying that those who might plot against the US deserve torture and murder. May I ask you this? What relationship do/did the 1.3 million who have died in Iraq due to our 2003 invasion have to 9/11?
And secondly, if it is sometimes permissible to torture some people, as you say, who is to be the judge of when this exception is being appropriately invoked? If exceptions are permitted, then do you not open the door to any and all scoundrels and tyrants who can say with a straight face that so and so posed an imminent threat to my country? And once you open that door - which what has happened with Bush and Cheney and now Obama - where then can anyone find refuge from the whirlwinds that you have thereby unleashed?
And secondly, if it is sometimes permissible to torture some people, as you say, who is to be the judge of when this exception is being appropriately invoked? If exceptions are permitted, then do you not open the door to any and all scoundrels and tyrants who can say with a straight face that so and so posed an imminent threat to my country? And once you open that door - which what has happened with Bush and Cheney and now Obama - where then can anyone find refuge from the whirlwinds that you have thereby unleashed?
Thank you for reminding us that those who perpetrated this madness must be brought to justice. Why is it only the underlings at Abu Graib were punished ? --rated--
You are correct BBE. We are lucky to have Dennis Loo here on OS. He tells it like it is about things people are more comfortable to ignore or cover up. Torture isn't wrong only for the innocent.
For the same reason the white collar criminals of Wall St will never be charged let alone see cells.
We have one standard for the rich and powerful and another for the common folk.
Which is why we need to be calling the White House.
We have one standard for the rich and powerful and another for the common folk.
Which is why we need to be calling the White House.
As a for example, as spelled out in David Swanson's blog that I have linked above as well, Personal Torture Laws: Your Tax Dollars at Work, one of the authors of those newly released torture memos, Jay Bybee, is currently serving as a federal appeals court judge in the Ninth Circuit.
The criminal is rewarded with the privilege to dispense justice when he really belongs in a cell.
Up is down.
The criminal is rewarded with the privilege to dispense justice when he really belongs in a cell.
Up is down.
Mr. Loo, no not murder. never murder. "Enhanced" techniques...yes but only on those who are the real deal...men who wouldn't bat an eye killing women, children, animals...only on those men or women who have shown themselves to be merciless themselves or are seriously involved in plots to murder and maim civilians or the good guys. Good guys meaning peaceful people who are pro democratic and pro human rights.
But who makes that determination?
We don't let these men have trials, hearings, nothing.
We don't let these men have trials, hearings, nothing.
New Blog: You say - "only on those men or women who have shown themselves to be merciless themselves or are seriously involved in plots to murder and maim civilians or the good guys."
Again, who's the judge of this? Who decides when torture's justified and when the victims of torture are deserving of it? You're buying into the old western trope that the bastards got what they deserved. Torture is banned for two very good reasons by int'l law. First, because it is barbaric behavior to torture ANYONE ANYTIME. It is unsuitable for a human to do any of this to anyone. Second, if you allow torture sometimes, then you allow people who are doing the torture to CLAIM that the person they're doing it to is really deserving and you have no grounds to challenge them on the validity of this if you allow exceptions.
(PS - please call me Dennis and not Mr. Loo. I had a traumatic experience - not torture, just trauma : ) - with my dissertation committee and I'm not going to have gone through that experience just to continue being called Mr and not Dr.)
Again, who's the judge of this? Who decides when torture's justified and when the victims of torture are deserving of it? You're buying into the old western trope that the bastards got what they deserved. Torture is banned for two very good reasons by int'l law. First, because it is barbaric behavior to torture ANYONE ANYTIME. It is unsuitable for a human to do any of this to anyone. Second, if you allow torture sometimes, then you allow people who are doing the torture to CLAIM that the person they're doing it to is really deserving and you have no grounds to challenge them on the validity of this if you allow exceptions.
(PS - please call me Dennis and not Mr. Loo. I had a traumatic experience - not torture, just trauma : ) - with my dissertation committee and I'm not going to have gone through that experience just to continue being called Mr and not Dr.)
Yes BBE that's why we have to rely on Obama and our elected officials and our CIA and DOD to do the right thing...this is imperative. I actually call for firing of all Bush era officials that were involved in the Iraq war. We need a new military with new souls and faces. I don't trust the Pentagon under Rumy and Cheney. That's the thing about humans...always a new crop available. Let's put in the good guys and filter out the bad. I'm for prosecutions on Bush era people just to let you know.
Okay Dr. Loo...I did not realize you were a doctor.
I wanted to add to my above paragraph something very important which I left out...
With Civilian oversite of course...meaning people like yourselves...BBE, Dr. Loo and others.
I don't want people to take my statement as I'm suggesting we leave everything to Obama, DOD, CIA even congress or the Courts...NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that it is imperative that good men and women ultimately are appointed or advanced or are recruited into these positions...and you the civilian overseers can help (are helping) to make that happen.
I wanted to add to my above paragraph something very important which I left out...
With Civilian oversite of course...meaning people like yourselves...BBE, Dr. Loo and others.
I don't want people to take my statement as I'm suggesting we leave everything to Obama, DOD, CIA even congress or the Courts...NOT AT ALL. I'm saying that it is imperative that good men and women ultimately are appointed or advanced or are recruited into these positions...and you the civilian overseers can help (are helping) to make that happen.
All those institutions we should be able to trust are broken and torture is just one ongoing issue proving this sad fact.
Are you gonna send those letters and make the call to the White House?
Are you gonna send those letters and make the call to the White House?
Folks- in case you haven't noticed- we are in the middle of the 2nd Great Depression. Can we please not refight the old battles from 4 years ago? We do have slightly more pressing issues to deal with at the moment.
You are flat out wrong.
The ongoing wars are intertwined with our current economic woes.
I dare you to argue that our continuing to piss away billions in Iraq and Afghanistan is not a significant part of the downturn.
Aside from that, what part of torture is illegal do you not understand?
What part of criminals must be prosecuted do you not understand?
You are a Good German and should be ashamed.
The ongoing wars are intertwined with our current economic woes.
I dare you to argue that our continuing to piss away billions in Iraq and Afghanistan is not a significant part of the downturn.
Aside from that, what part of torture is illegal do you not understand?
What part of criminals must be prosecuted do you not understand?
You are a Good German and should be ashamed.
New Blog:
The whole point of saying and institutionalizing the principle that laws trump people is that you cannot always count on having good people in charge. That's the first point. You will not always have good people, you are inevitably going to have at least some of the time, bad people or weak people or incompetent people in charge. You cannot avoid this.
The second point is who judges whether the people in charge are good people or not? Do you do it on the basis of their self-representations? A lot of good that will do since all kinds of people can lie convincingly, even to themselves. Obama says he's a good and well-meaning person. He also says that about the tyrants and torturers who he's refusing to investigate and prosecute. So what does that make him? He has just been forced to release documents that show without question that these are not good, well-meaning people. They are sadists, liars and murderers. But according to Mr. Obama, they're fine, well-intentioned people. What does that make Mr. Obama? He's either stupid or he's a liar.
Some of Obama's fans who are making excuse after excuse for him are just the mirror opposite of those fans of Bush's who made excuse after excuse for him: he's a good man, he must know what he's doing, he's protecting us, etc., etc., etc.
You have to look at the system that we live in. It's capitalist-imperialist. It's an empire, the only true superpower since Rome. It depends for its imperial status on exploiting and plunder and death. The president of such a superpower is doing the bidding of the people who really run things. The only hope is if the masses of people, beginning at this point with relatively small numbers of people, rise up against these injustices and demand accountability. forcing the hand of Obama on pain of a broader upheaval that Obama could not contain and fears even more than antagonizing the Bush gang.
The whole point of saying and institutionalizing the principle that laws trump people is that you cannot always count on having good people in charge. That's the first point. You will not always have good people, you are inevitably going to have at least some of the time, bad people or weak people or incompetent people in charge. You cannot avoid this.
The second point is who judges whether the people in charge are good people or not? Do you do it on the basis of their self-representations? A lot of good that will do since all kinds of people can lie convincingly, even to themselves. Obama says he's a good and well-meaning person. He also says that about the tyrants and torturers who he's refusing to investigate and prosecute. So what does that make him? He has just been forced to release documents that show without question that these are not good, well-meaning people. They are sadists, liars and murderers. But according to Mr. Obama, they're fine, well-intentioned people. What does that make Mr. Obama? He's either stupid or he's a liar.
Some of Obama's fans who are making excuse after excuse for him are just the mirror opposite of those fans of Bush's who made excuse after excuse for him: he's a good man, he must know what he's doing, he's protecting us, etc., etc., etc.
You have to look at the system that we live in. It's capitalist-imperialist. It's an empire, the only true superpower since Rome. It depends for its imperial status on exploiting and plunder and death. The president of such a superpower is doing the bidding of the people who really run things. The only hope is if the masses of people, beginning at this point with relatively small numbers of people, rise up against these injustices and demand accountability. forcing the hand of Obama on pain of a broader upheaval that Obama could not contain and fears even more than antagonizing the Bush gang.
I vote for liar.
On a lighter note, has anyone bothered to watch the Youtube?
On a lighter note, has anyone bothered to watch the Youtube?
Rated earlier. Made the phone call, sent the letter.
I like your call for accountability Dr. Loo. I will be traveling to DC next month to touch base with organizations, investigate lobbyist employment and visit my mother. I will drop into the White House or make my calls from there once I'm in the District. Thank you for your vigilance in concern Dr. Loo and Mr(s). BBE.
Excellent, New Blog.
This so-called AfPak war, according to various article's is going to Obama's Vietnam. No one in history has occupied Afghanistan for a significant amount of time. The same with Vietnam. These people are in no hurry, sooner or later, they know you'll have to leave. In Vietnam, we won all the battles, but lost the war. Sound similar.
Brilliant post BBE! Have taken it to heart and done the following (thank you for making it so efficient to do so – I can't say easy because the subject is so painful)
sent indict letters to my representative
reached the Whitehouse after 18 tries (it was very busy - hope that's a good sign)
added my name to AfterDowningStreet petition
added my name to the democrats.com petition
called the Attorney General
had already signed the ACLU petition
signed the firedog petition
downloaded the real-world petition pdf with the intent to fill it with signatures
sent the peaceteam letters
the office of war crimes said they only investigate other countries (!)
signed the UN petition
and I sent a link to your blog to someone who was complaining about some Mexican students hoisting a mexican flag at their American high school.
Good work, BBE!
sent indict letters to my representative
reached the Whitehouse after 18 tries (it was very busy - hope that's a good sign)
added my name to AfterDowningStreet petition
added my name to the democrats.com petition
called the Attorney General
had already signed the ACLU petition
signed the firedog petition
downloaded the real-world petition pdf with the intent to fill it with signatures
sent the peaceteam letters
the office of war crimes said they only investigate other countries (!)
signed the UN petition
and I sent a link to your blog to someone who was complaining about some Mexican students hoisting a mexican flag at their American high school.
Good work, BBE!
It took me 30 minutes to get through to the WH earlier this AM. I looked around to see if there were additional phone numbers to post so it would be easier for those who called later and even tried the switchboard to see if that could be a sly way in, but the x1111 line is the only way to comment by phone. I'm hoping their phones ring off the hook about torture.
Thanks BBE, I followed your lead, writing and calling my three (republican) Washington reps and demanding that they be as tough on crime as my good, values-driven conservative D.A. down here in red state, USA.
As for torture, let's not forget that has been proven over and over again to be an ineffective mode of interrogation. Not only is it evil, it flat out doesn't work.
New Blog, go rent "The Battle of Algiers" and when you're done with it, mail it to your congressman.
As for torture, let's not forget that has been proven over and over again to be an ineffective mode of interrogation. Not only is it evil, it flat out doesn't work.
New Blog, go rent "The Battle of Algiers" and when you're done with it, mail it to your congressman.
Sigh. Horrible stuff. I probably only agree with you on about 10% of WOT stuff.
But the Abu Ghraib shit was sickening. I think there needs to be a change in military culture. The lower ranking enlisted live such debasing lives that this kind of thing will happen if given the chance.
On the other hand, most combat arms units are VERY disciplined despite all the bullshit. But military life does not have to be so depressing.
Go to Ft. Hood. On a summer night, after duty hours, on a block with a dense population of young people, you would expect to see people outside, throwing a frisbee with a dog or holding hands with their sweeties or some such. Nope. Desolate. The repression in the air is so thick that everybody either leaves post or stays inside.
There is nothing on post but a few fast food joints and 24 hour liquor stores. Everybody drinks.
Just in my platoon in the three years I was there we had three suicides.
None of this is meant as a justification, just saying when I heard about AG, I wasn't surprised.
But the Abu Ghraib shit was sickening. I think there needs to be a change in military culture. The lower ranking enlisted live such debasing lives that this kind of thing will happen if given the chance.
On the other hand, most combat arms units are VERY disciplined despite all the bullshit. But military life does not have to be so depressing.
Go to Ft. Hood. On a summer night, after duty hours, on a block with a dense population of young people, you would expect to see people outside, throwing a frisbee with a dog or holding hands with their sweeties or some such. Nope. Desolate. The repression in the air is so thick that everybody either leaves post or stays inside.
There is nothing on post but a few fast food joints and 24 hour liquor stores. Everybody drinks.
Just in my platoon in the three years I was there we had three suicides.
None of this is meant as a justification, just saying when I heard about AG, I wasn't surprised.
Right on, BBE. On my way over to the others I missed and continue to do what's needed to get this word out, loud and clear.
Dr. Loo writes:
"The whole point of saying and institutionalizing the principle that laws trump people is that you cannot always count on having good people in charge. That's the first point. You will not always have good people, you are inevitably going to have at least some of the time, bad people or weak people or incompetent people in charge. You cannot avoid this. "
Newblog response:
I believe that moral training can be instilled into our military. The current military IS disgusting, like only slightly better than typical Jerry Springer guests. WE need to spend time revamping our military...giving them new training, and a new moral directive. Schmadoff gave some excellent insight into the current military life. There should be no reason that people are drunks and violent to the extent many military guys are. I don't believe in the Pavlovian training model for turning men into reflexive, obedient killers. I believe we can train proficient, highly skilled soldiers who also appreciate ballet, would help an old lady across the street and would rescue a puppy from the shelter instead of throwing it off a cliff. I know of one particular story where Marines in California robbed liquor stores in small towns surrounding their base on the weekends...by checking out their Marine issued handguns and saying they were going to the shooting range over the weekend. Bush's military is sick. I hope Obama's can be a step up.
"The whole point of saying and institutionalizing the principle that laws trump people is that you cannot always count on having good people in charge. That's the first point. You will not always have good people, you are inevitably going to have at least some of the time, bad people or weak people or incompetent people in charge. You cannot avoid this. "
Newblog response:
I believe that moral training can be instilled into our military. The current military IS disgusting, like only slightly better than typical Jerry Springer guests. WE need to spend time revamping our military...giving them new training, and a new moral directive. Schmadoff gave some excellent insight into the current military life. There should be no reason that people are drunks and violent to the extent many military guys are. I don't believe in the Pavlovian training model for turning men into reflexive, obedient killers. I believe we can train proficient, highly skilled soldiers who also appreciate ballet, would help an old lady across the street and would rescue a puppy from the shelter instead of throwing it off a cliff. I know of one particular story where Marines in California robbed liquor stores in small towns surrounding their base on the weekends...by checking out their Marine issued handguns and saying they were going to the shooting range over the weekend. Bush's military is sick. I hope Obama's can be a step up.
Great post. I don't know how it avoided the front page.
Rated
Rated
"that's why we have to rely on Obama and our elected officials and our CIA and DOD to do the right thing...this is imperative. "
Big leap of faith required there newblog!
"As for torture, let's not forget that has been proven over and over again to be an ineffective mode of interrogation. Not only is it evil, it flat out doesn't work. " Excellent point Edgar. Thanks for recommending Pontecorvo's film. everyone should watch it.
Also, as Dennis tirelessly points out , torture is illegal under international law. Does the US not want to come back into the international community?
Newblog is right to suggest changing the culture of the military but they still have to be bound by law and torture of anyone is illegal and disgusting and ineffective.
Big leap of faith required there newblog!
"As for torture, let's not forget that has been proven over and over again to be an ineffective mode of interrogation. Not only is it evil, it flat out doesn't work. " Excellent point Edgar. Thanks for recommending Pontecorvo's film. everyone should watch it.
Also, as Dennis tirelessly points out , torture is illegal under international law. Does the US not want to come back into the international community?
Newblog is right to suggest changing the culture of the military but they still have to be bound by law and torture of anyone is illegal and disgusting and ineffective.
Not just the military doing the torture. CIA, contractors, third country citizens. But it is all in our name.
thank you for writing about this. i think the comments deserve a post all their own, especially between you, new blog and loo. this is a conversation we need to have.
I hope my ACLU letter went even though I didn't donate (more) them this year on that form . . .
With that sick twinge about how strange it is to say this, thanks BBE for keeping this in the light of day.
With that sick twinge about how strange it is to say this, thanks BBE for keeping this in the light of day.
Not donating after signing has no impact.
The ACLU lost millions when many of their major donor foundations lost their shirts courtesy of Maddoff, so I wasn't surprised they had their hands out post petition page. They and the Innocence Project are both hard hit due to that ponzi scheme.
If you liked this comment thread, you should go and check out the one at Monte's post. The one I've linked to up in the post. It is VERY good. Prof Loo spent some time there as well yesterday.
The ACLU lost millions when many of their major donor foundations lost their shirts courtesy of Maddoff, so I wasn't surprised they had their hands out post petition page. They and the Innocence Project are both hard hit due to that ponzi scheme.
If you liked this comment thread, you should go and check out the one at Monte's post. The one I've linked to up in the post. It is VERY good. Prof Loo spent some time there as well yesterday.
Adding two more blogs to the best of OS on Torture List.
Libertarius' Obama and Torture: Did He Say Just Following Orders?
and
Gary Herstein's The Works (or, do I hear water?)
Both excellent and deserving of more readers.
Libertarius' Obama and Torture: Did He Say Just Following Orders?
and
Gary Herstein's The Works (or, do I hear water?)
Both excellent and deserving of more readers.
Anyone who thought Obama was going to be an idealist has misread both the man and his book, The Audacity of Hope. In it, he reveals himself as a realist, though a generally optimistic one, and an opportunist, though not necessarily a selfish one.
Here's my take:
Tortured Principles Temporary Practicality
.
Here's my take:
Tortured Principles Temporary Practicality
.
Nice example of how one should blog whore!
Your post is a good one and I'll add it into the OS Torture Compendium.
Have you called the White House yet?
Your post is a good one and I'll add it into the OS Torture Compendium.
Have you called the White House yet?
BBE: I am really sorry that I missed this when you published it. You have done a tremendous service to us by providing all this information and these links. As you can see in your side feed I have written yet another post on this same subject hoping that I can give by example one way to analyze future actions by the President which he will undoubtedly face regarding the crimes of the Bush Administration. I deliberately looked at the ethical and moral implications of his actions to provide another lens through which one can guage what they think.
Thanks again. Your post is truly an act of service.
Monte
Thanks again. Your post is truly an act of service.
Monte
I'm tired of being ashamed of what my country is doing, Monte.
I'm adding your new post to the list as well as a link to the White House site that allows us to send the president emails. That phone line has been very busy and must be kept that way.
I'm adding your new post to the list as well as a link to the White House site that allows us to send the president emails. That phone line has been very busy and must be kept that way.
Dr. Loo writes in his 3rd comment:
"If exceptions are permitted, then do you not open the door to any and all scoundrels and tyrants who can say with a straight face that so and so posed an imminent threat to my country?"
New Blog response: This hypothetical you posed before us is what has me in agreement with your position. You are right in the end Dr. Loo, and I ultimately concur that no matter what the official validation / justification for torture or enhanced interrogation techniques posed before the people...leaving it as an option on the books will subject it to varied interpretations as to its invocation...interpretations that can never be 100% trusted given the fluctuation of political power and psychological makeup of the populace. This is why we defer to law...and so law needs to be established to prevent ambiguity. Short term detterance I concatenate is more harmful in the long run. I will think more on this in the coming days and attempt to determine if what I have just written here is in fact the right answer and right position to stand by. This is a complex issue, and I want to see in a day or so, if I still feel the same way.
"If exceptions are permitted, then do you not open the door to any and all scoundrels and tyrants who can say with a straight face that so and so posed an imminent threat to my country?"
New Blog response: This hypothetical you posed before us is what has me in agreement with your position. You are right in the end Dr. Loo, and I ultimately concur that no matter what the official validation / justification for torture or enhanced interrogation techniques posed before the people...leaving it as an option on the books will subject it to varied interpretations as to its invocation...interpretations that can never be 100% trusted given the fluctuation of political power and psychological makeup of the populace. This is why we defer to law...and so law needs to be established to prevent ambiguity. Short term detterance I concatenate is more harmful in the long run. I will think more on this in the coming days and attempt to determine if what I have just written here is in fact the right answer and right position to stand by. This is a complex issue, and I want to see in a day or so, if I still feel the same way.
Ok, I've filed messages with the Pres and my senators. If I get more time, I'll do some others. I opted not to go through the standard messages since I assume they discount for things they think are part of something organized. I wrote personalized text to each of them.
BBE-Thanks for the link to my post.
As posted before dijon, the more we can drive people to read any of your posts, the more others can see your intellectual bankruptcy and utterly deceitful posts. You are an emperor who wears no clothes, unless you consider the red, white, and blue jogstrap you drape over your head haute couture.
I've called/written all the places; don't think it will make a hill of beans difference, 'cuz' they're gonna' do what they want to, anyway.
To buttress your claims, BBE, these eyewitness accounts, by military members include testimony that while we were beating defenseless innocents, we allowed our pals, the poles and others in on the "fun":
http://open.salon.com/blog/markinjapan/2009/04/19/hearts_and_minds
I've called/written all the places; don't think it will make a hill of beans difference, 'cuz' they're gonna' do what they want to, anyway.
To buttress your claims, BBE, these eyewitness accounts, by military members include testimony that while we were beating defenseless innocents, we allowed our pals, the poles and others in on the "fun":
http://open.salon.com/blog/markinjapan/2009/04/19/hearts_and_minds
Mark, I think the calls are working. Obama "moved" some today on the issue of investigations. He is now on the record as saying it is up to AG Holder to investigate the torture memo writers and determine the need for prosecutions.
The comment thread of DJohn's post is excellent and well worth reading which is why I have included his post.
I am still updating the torture list, but over at the more current post:
2 Prisoners Waterboarded 266 times - Demand Investigations!
There are two or three others in addition to your latest that I will put in later this afternoon. Prof Loo has a particularly good post up today: Why Obama Released the Torture Memos
The comment thread of DJohn's post is excellent and well worth reading which is why I have included his post.
I am still updating the torture list, but over at the more current post:
2 Prisoners Waterboarded 266 times - Demand Investigations!
There are two or three others in addition to your latest that I will put in later this afternoon. Prof Loo has a particularly good post up today: Why Obama Released the Torture Memos
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